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Season 6 episodes

As is, by now, firmly traditional for the first episode of a new season of the podcast, the 123rd Second Hand Book Factory finds Charles Adrian chatting to Vera Chok, who is neither fancy nor a storyteller. They talk relatable self-help, a book to make you cry and an early Renaissance guide to health.

Clarification 1: The audio version of Brené Brown’s Rising Strong that Vera mentions having listened to is, in fact, a recording of a talk given by Brené Brown called Rising Strong As A Spiritual Practice. There is also an audio version of the book, Rising Strong, read by Brené Brown.

Clarification 2: “The Tacuinum Sanitatis is a richly illustrated guide to health. Made in Padua in the 1450s, it contains 130 miniatures illustrating substances and activities conducive to health and happiness, ranging from food and drink to singing, sleep and sex. Its scribe and artists enjoyed the patronage of a circle of humanists who flourished in the Veneto in the 1450s and 1460s, including the Venetian governer of Padua, Jacopo Antionio Marcello, and his great friend King René of Anjou. A window into the everyday lives of affluent Italians in the fifteenth century, the Tacuinum Sanitatis brings to life the fascinating domestic arena of the early Renaissance.” (From the back cover of Tacuinum Sanitatis: An Early Renaissance Guide to Health by Alixe Bovey.)

You can listen to Brené Brown talking to Krista Tippett on her podcast On Being here or here. (Quite by chance, this was re-released on the On Being feed the same week as Charles Adrian’s conversation with Vera was released on the Page One feed.)

The Erik Patterson mentioned was featured in Page One 66.

A transcript of this episode is below.

Episode released: 30th December, 2019.

Book list:

Rising Strong by Brené Brown

A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara

Tacuinum Sanitatis: An Early Renaissance Guide to Health by Alixe Bovey

Other episodes featuring Vera Chok:
Page One 127
Page One 107
Page One 90
Page One 52
Page One 6

Links:

Page One 66

Strong Back, Soft Front, Wild Heart (Brené Brown on On Being)

Strong Back, Soft Front, Wild Heart (Brené Brown on On Being on Soundcloud)

Vera & Adrian

Vera Chok

Charles Adrian

Episode Transcript:

Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 149th Page One. This is the 123rd Second Hand Book Factory. It's the beginning of the sixth and very possibly last series of Page One. I'm Charles Adrian and, for the sixth time, my guest, to open the series, as is now traditional, is Vera Chok.

Jingle
You're listening to Page One, the book podcast.

Vera Chok
Hi.

Charles Adrian
So we're here in, well, somewhere near Canary Wharf.

Vera Chok
The Isle of Dogs.

Charles Adrian
We're on the Isle of dogs. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Vera Chok
Docklands.

Charles Adrian
Docklands. That's a nice, yeah, that's a nice description of it. And I'm looking out the window towards the river, which seems to be flowing upstream right now. But that may be just the wind. Do you think the tide's coming in?

Vera Chok
Oh! I mean, I don't know. I don't know directions.

Vera Chok
But yes. It's upstream. Yes.

Charles Adrian
[laughs] Yeah. So we can look... we're looking towards the O2, and...

Vera Chok
Which makes me sound really fancy. I'm not fancy.

Charles Adrian
That's right. Noted.

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
How do you describe yourself nowadays, Vera?

Vera Chok
Oh crap.

Charles Adrian
Apart from not fancy.

Vera Chok
Not fancy. I'm not a storyteller.

Charles Adrian
Oh really?

Vera Chok
Yes.

Charles Adrian
That's surprising.

Vera Chok
This came from a... Really? ... from a recent project where people described themselves as storytellers. Or, I've met a lot of people who are very insistent on story or narrative. And I realised that I... I love stories, but I don't personally make stories. I help other people make stories. I disrupt stories in order to do stuff. I think you know that I'm very disruptive.

Charles Adrian
Yes. Yeah. Now you say that, actually, I've been thinking... Yeah, maybe it's not so surprising, actually, given what I know of your work. True.

[page turning]

Charles Adrian
Okay, good. Thank you. Um...

Vera Chok
[affirmative] Mmm.

Charles Adrian
Shall we just plunge into the books?

Vera Chok
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.

Charles Adrian
Because I'm really... I'm curious to know what you've managed to... because you've given me... already... you've given me five books already. And more than that, I think because I've taken home other books that you've talked about.

Vera Chok
Ah.

Charles Adrian
So...

Vera Chok
What, my cast offs?

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
Yeah. All of your cast offs. And you're quite itinerant. I mean, we've done these in different locations each time, which I think is a good indication of how much you travel around London at least.

Vera Chok
Again, not through fancy-ness. Through...

Charles Adrian
Through necessity.

Vera Chok
... necessity.

Charles Adrian
Yeah. But it does mean... I recog... I realise that it means that you don't have... you don't have all of your books with you all of the time. So I feel like I'm bleeding you of your books.

Vera Chok
Oh, no! No. Because I was thinking about it today as I unpacked my books in order to find one to give you... because I did the Marie Kondo thing....

Charles Adrian
Oh yes.

Vera Chok
... of, like, keeping... of surrounding yourselves... surrounding yourself with the things that bring you joy... I haven't given away enough things.

Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Aha.

Vera Chok
I have a whole pile of books which do not bring me joy and I want to get rid of them.

Charles Adrian
Why have you not given... Why have you not got rid of them?

Vera Chok
Hmm. It's that fine line of, like, what's useful?

Vera Chok
So I've kept things like Shakespeare and Chekov and Ibsen. And I'm thinking... you can keep screwdriver... a screwdriver around because it's useful. You need it in your life. And so I've got some, you know, useful work stuff around. But I think the line is, if it's causing me pain, [laughter] then I should sort of like, let them go into the world. And then, if I ever need a copy, I can just go to the library or buy another copy.

Charles Adrian
I see.

Charles Adrian
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Vera Chok
So it's a nice exercise in letting go. I can't remember the beginning... why we were talking about... Oh, you feel... you feel bad.

Charles Adrian
I feel like... Yeah I feel like I'm...

Vera Chok
No don't.

Charles Adrian
... squeezing the last of your books from you.

Vera Chok
Yeah. I held the book that I'm going to give you today. And I was like: Oh, no, I want to keep it but then it will bring you so much... Well, I hope.

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
Me too! I hope so.

Vera Chok
I think it'll make you chuckle.

Charles Adrian
Okay.

Vera Chok
So I'm like: No, I'll pass it on.

Charles Adrian
Okay, and before that... So what's the one that you're going to... what's the... what's the book that you like, that you're not going to give to me...

Vera Chok
Um...

Charles Adrian
... that I don't need to feel bad about?

Vera Chok
[laughter] It's Rising Strong by Brené Brown.

Charles Adrian
Oh yeah.

Vera Chok
So I don't remember if I've already raved about the audiobook to you and sent you the link? Probably.

Charles Adrian
Yes. Because I think I listened.... I listened to an interview with her on another podcast - On Being with Krista Tippett - and I'm sure they were talking about... that's the book that they would have been talking about, isn't it?

Vera Chok
I suppose it's the latest...

Charles Adrian
Is it her most recent book?

Vera Chok
Yeah. [affirmative] Mmm hmm. So I've actually listened to the audiobook a couple of times, and it's a bit naughty. It's not actually an audiobook. It's a seminar.

Charles Adrian
Oh. Okay.

Vera Chok
So it's her talking to a bunch of people based on the book Rising Strong, and I'm like: That's naughty. I mean, it's delightful and amazing, and there's a great Q&A session. And you get the immediacy of Brené Brown. But then I thought, Oh, no, I...

Charles Adrian
Then you have to buy the book.

Vera Chok
[laughter] I have to buy the book! Which, again, breaking some rules here, I haven't finished reading, but I already know that I love it.

Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
And I love her writing. So that's the book.

Charles Adrian
Mmm.

Vera Chok
I'm going to get it. Now I haven't decided whether to read the first page of the intro of the first page first page. But... this is the actual first page, I guess:

One
THE PHYSICS OF VULNERABILITY

WHEN IT COMES to human behavior, emotions, and thinking, the adage “The more I learn, the less I know” is right on. I've learned to give up my pursuit of netting certainty and pinning it to the wall. Some days I miss pretending that certitude is within reach. My husband, Steve, always knows I'm mourning the loss of my young-researcher quest when I'm holed up in my study listening to David Gray's song “My Oh My” on repeat. My favorite lyrics are

What on earth is going on in my head?
You know I used to be so sure.
You know I used to be so definite.

And it's not just the lyrics; it's the way that he sings the word def.in.ite. Sometimes, it sounds to me as if he's mocking the arrogance of believing that we can ever know everything...

Charles Adrian
Very nice.

Vera Chok
[sighs] I can't... How to summerise why...? I love her so much because... because I've been reading a whole bunch of, like - very unusually for me - spiritual books. And they make sense, but I suppose, because she so clearly comes across as being grounded in the real world... and that she swears, and that she has children and she struggles with the children and the husband and the job and... and she has anxiety and all that kind of thing, I'm like: Okay. You're pretty much saying exactly the same thing as the spiritual books but I feel you're more accessible.

Charles Adrian
Right.

Vera Chok
And... yeah, it's practical.. I mean, yes, I was worrying about, like, bringing a self h... Is it a self help book? Yes, I guess it is, in the sense that it is about approaching life in a different way. Mmm. But I'm like: Yeah, whatever. I'm allowed. [laughter]

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah... I don't... There's a... [laughter] Yeah. That's a very... it's a very broad category, though, isn't it, self help. I mean, there's self help that is just a list of answers...

Vera Chok
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.

Charles Adrian
... to questions you may or may not have asked. And there's self help that is a set of practices or suggestions or ways of looking at things, which I think is a more interesting...

Vera Chok
Yeah.

Charles Adrian
... field.

Vera Chok
Because it's like philosophy, isn't it? It's like, I find it's a philosophical... treaty? Treat...

Charles Adrian
Treatise?

Vera Chok
... ise?

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
Sounds like a cat treats. "Treaties!"

Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
[miaows] But, yes, and also I'm like: Oh am I the kind of person who is now, sort of, amassing self help books 'cause I'm the age I am and at the point of life. But no, I don't think so. I think you... if you've... Oh now, don't sound judgy, Vera. I feel like, for example, with Marie Kondo... I've done it, it's helped me, and then I'm done. That's... that's...

Charles Adrian
Right.

Vera Chok
... taken care of one big aspect of my life. And then Brené Brown is like: Yup, she's my kind of thing.

Charles Adrian
Yes.

Vera Chok
But sometimes I worry, you know, if she's my pseudo religion.

Charles Adrian
I think that's okay. I mean, I think... it feels to me like she herself would say: As long as you hold it lightly, that's not a problem. Take what is useful...

Vera Chok
[laughter] Why do you say you think she would say that?

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
She's like: Buy my books, bitch!

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
Subscribe, subscribe! Merchandising!

Vera Chok
I don't know. I fell into an Instagram hole because... what was it she mentioned? Liz Gilbert's Instagram. So I was like: Oh, I'll follow Liz Gilbert!

Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
And then Liz Gilbert... They were talking about what's her face? Kristen Bell. And I was like: Oh, I'll follow her as well!

Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
All these, like, blonde Americans who are amazing [with emphasis] MUMS and I'm like: Uh oh.

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
Well, thank you. So that's Rising Strong.

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
Yes. 'This is a book about getting back up by Brené Brown, the TED Talk phenomenon.' [laughs] What horrible marketing.

Charles Adrian
That is horrible marketing, but I think it's probably accurate.

Vera Chok
Mmm.

Charles Adrian
Yes. Interesting. Cool! Um, yeah, I'm gonna... I'll look out for... I'll look out for her... for the audio version of that.

[page turning]

Charles Adrian
Okay, now the book that I've got for you...

Vera Chok
[laughs] Yes.

Charles Adrian
... I don't think you're going to read it.

Vera Chok
Okay.

Charles Adrian
And I'm pretty sure, if you do read it, you're not going to like it. But I think it's a book that you should have...

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
... because... So, it was recommended to me by our mutual friend Erik Patterson, who was also a guest on this podcast.

Vera Chok
[speaking over] Oh no! No! I know what it is.

Vera Chok
It's the big miserable one.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah!

Charles Adrian
Yes! The big miserable one.

Vera Chok
No!

Charles Adrian
Shortlisted for the Man Booker Prize in 2015...

Vera Chok
[speaking over] Yeah, but it's really complicated.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Shortlisted for the Bailey's Women's Prize for Fiction 2016...

Vera Chok
[speaking over] Isn't it about a whole bunch of blokes just like going...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Shortlisted for the US National Book Awards 2015...

Vera Chok
[speaking over] Shut up! I don't want to read it!

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Winner of the British Book Industry Award for Fiction 2016.

Vera Chok
[speaking over] Adrian, you know how I feel about book prizes because I've judged literary prizes. We understand how people win Book Prizes now...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] So, this is A Little Life by Hanya Yanigahara...

Vera Chok
[speaking over] You've just been ignoring me! [laughter]

Charles Adrian
... and it was a very important book for me. So I want you to have it.

Vera Chok
[speaking over] Okay. Why is it an important book for you?

Charles Adrian
It made me cry so much. [laughter] You've... It made me cry more than any other book I've read.

Vera Chok
Okay.

Charles Adrian
And I'm not expecting it to make you cry.

Vera Chok
So this is just punishment.

Charles Adrian
No. You... I mean, you can give it away. You don't even have to... As I say, you don't even have to read it. I'm not expecting you to read it. But I would like you to look at it. [laughter]

Vera Chok
[laughs] Okay. I have looked at it in a bookshop.

Charles Adrian
Right.

Vera Chok
Or maybe I looked... I looked at Erik's copy at Brunch.

Charles Adrian
Okay. Okay. Now... so... the thing I think is interesting about it is: How... how does Hanya Yanigara... how does she do it? Is my question. Because on one level it is.... it's a very straightforward kind of narrative. It could be quite boring in other hands. But it is, for people who like it - and I think not everybody likes it - but for people who like it, it is absolutely gripping. And it's something to do with the way she draws the characters, I think...

Vera Chok
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.

Charles Adrian
... that we either identify with them or we feel so much for them that we take this journey. And it is... it is very painful. And I feel like she also plays with dosing how much pain you can take before she gives you something nicer. It's full of love, this book. I mean, it's a ludicrous fairy story... fairy tale... in one...

Vera Chok
Ah.

Charles Adrian
You, know, one way of looking at it is that.

Vera Chok
Okay. Yeah.

Charles Adrian
There is... there is absurd amounts of love and care in... inside this story...

Charles Adrian
... along with the unbearable amounts of... unbearable amounts of pain. Yeah, it's a kind of... it's a... Yeah, I don't know... I don't want to say much more about it. One of the... one of the things I loved about it was that I knew nothing about it when I started reading it. It was just a recommendation from Erik. And I'd bought it and I had it on my shelf. And it took me a while to work out what even... what it was even going to be about. Or what kind of book this is. And it's a book that doesn't really happen on the first page. It starts to happen on the second and third pages, I think.

Vera Chok
Okay.

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
So you're not going to hear that today.

Vera Chok
Okay.

Charles Adrian
But... so, the first section is called Lispenard Street and the first page goes as follows:

1
THE ELEVENTH APARTMENT had only one closet, but it did have a sliding glass door that opened on to a small balcony, from which he could see a man sitting across the way, outdoors in only a T-shirt and shorts even though it was October, smoking. Willem held up a handed greeting to him, but the man didn't wave back.
In the bedroom, Jude was accordioning the closet door, opening and shutting it, when Willem came in. “There's only one closet,” he said.
“That's okay,” Willem said, “I have nothing to put in it anyway.”
“Neither do I.” They smiled at each other. The agent from the building wandered in after them. “We'll take it,” Jude told her.
But back at the agent's office they were told they couldn't rent the apartment after all. “Why not?” Jude asked her.
“You don't make enough to cover six months' rent and you don't have anything in savings,” said the agent, suddenly terse. She had checked their credit and their bank accounts and had at last realized that there was something amiss about two men in their 20s who were not a couple and yet were trying to rent a one-bedroom apartment on a dull (but still expensive) stretch of Twenty-Fifth Street. “Do you have anyone who can sign on as your guarantor? A boss? Parents?”
“Our parents are dead,” said Willem swiftly.
The agent sighed. “Then I suggest you lower your expectations. No one who manages a well-run building is going to rent to candidates...”

I can see you're not hooked yet.

Vera Chok
Um... Yeah. Yeah. I'm just reacting a lot against, sort of, stories about men.

Charles Adrian
Yeah, no, fair enough. Fair enough. It is a very... it's very much a story about men.

Vera Chok
Okay.

Charles Adrian
Yeah. I'm not going to lie to you.

Vera Chok
[laughs]

Charles Adrian
What's the book...

[page turning]

Charles Adrian
... that you think I should have?

Vera Chok
[sings some musical notes] Ooooooh! Aaaaaah! Read it!

Charles Adrian
[gasps] Oh my word! Tacuinum Sanitatis: An Early Renaissance Guide To Health by Alixe Bovey. That sounds amazing. I love the illustration on the front of this...

Vera Chok
Yes!

Charles Adrian
What's he doing? Is he...

Charles Adrian
They might be... turnips?

Charles Adrian
... hitting himself with gourds? Or turnips? He looks like he's hitting himself.

Vera Chok
Oh, maybe it'll say somewhere.

Charles Adrian
Where did you find this?

Vera Chok
Oh, I was given it. It's actually a... what do you call it? A brochure. An art gallery brochure.

Charles Adrian
Oh, I see.

Vera Chok
So it's mostly plates with amazing... Basically, it's plates of the book. And descriptions.

Charles Adrian
Oh, wow.

Vera Chok
And I love it. I love it so much. And I've had it for a long time.

Charles Adrian
But, so this was... was this exhibition of...

Vera Chok
Yes.

Charles Adrian
... early Renaissance... art?

Vera Chok
Well. Of this book. The Tacuinum Sanitatis.

Charles Adrian
Oh, oh, oh, okay. So this was an illustrated book.

Vera Chok
Yes.

Charles Adrian
I see.

Vera Chok
Um. And... So: "This book accompanies an exhibition of miniatures from the Liechtenstein Tacuinum Sanitatis at Sam Fogg. 1st-29th July, 2005."

Charles Adrian
Oh wow. And it... so the book is from Liechtenstein?

Vera Chok
I think the miniatures... Oh, I don't know. I don't know why they mention Liechtenstein at all. "... acompanies an exhibition of miniatures from the Liechtenstein..." Maybe it's... Maybe the Tacuinum Sanitatis lives in Liechtenstein.

Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.

Vera Chok
Maybe the original's there... Oh, yeah. It's called the Liechtenstein Tacuinum. [uncertain] Tacuinum [/tækwɪnəm/]?

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Okay. I don't know.

Vera Chok
You studied Latin.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Tacuinum [/tækwiːnəm/]. Yes, but I don't...

Vera Chok
[speaking over] Tacuinum [/tækwɪnəm/].

Charles Adrian
... I mean, years and years ago. And I don't remember there being any real idea about how we were supposed to pronounce things.

Vera Chok
Well I... I think it is Takwin [/tækwɪn/]... And then Tacuinum [/tækwɪnəm/] because I read somewhere in here it's, like, from the Arabic Taqwim [/tækwɪm/]...

Charles Adrian
Oh yeah?

Vera Chok
... So I guess that's how you pronounce it.

Charles Adrian
Do you know what it means?

Vera Chok
Nope.

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
You'll find out... maybe.

Charles Adrian
Okay. I will find out.

Vera Chok
Yes. Actually, it says here it's:

a Latinization of the Arabic word taqwim (meaning ‘table’ or ‘almanac’).

Charles Adrian
Ah!

Vera Chok

In the Arabic Taqwim al-sihha, Mr somebody-whose-name-I-can't-pronounce provided a comprehensive overview of the foods, drinks, activities and environments that, according to the traditions of ancient Greek and Roman medicine, would ensure good health.

Charles Adrian
Oh, that is so exciting. So it's ancient Greek and Roman medicine via the Arabic scholars...

Vera Chok
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.

Charles Adrian
... and then into Renaissance Latin.

Vera Chok

In the thirteenth century, it was translated into Latin, thereby reintroducing the West…

Charles Adrian
[talking over] I love... I do love that stuff.

Vera Chok

… to…

Yes!

Charles Adrian
That is so cool.

Vera Chok
I picked well!

Charles Adrian
You did pick well.

Vera Chok
But I didn't want to read the first page first page. I'm just going to read the thing...

Charles Adrian
Right.

Vera Chok
... on the first plate?

Charles Adrian
Okay. Yes.

Vera Chok
It's a... it's a giant picture of a man wearing red in a field of what looks like weeds to me.

PLATE 1 Fennel. [laughs]
An elegantly dressed man picks a sprig of fennel, which is good for the eyesight and an effective remedy for fever. The iconography of this image closely follows that of early Tacuina (compare, for example, fig. 7), but subtly updates the gentleman's dress by raising the hem of his tunic to above the knee and giving him long pointed shoes.

Charles Adrian
[laughs] So he's dressed in the latest fashions....

Vera Chok
Yes!

Charles Adrian
... while he's harvesting his fennel.

Vera Chok
Yes!

Charles Adrian
How wonderful! With a daring hemline.

Vera and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Vera Chok
You can see his nobbly knees!

Charles Adrian
You can his knees! I can see them.

Vera Chok
Yeah, and he's dressed head to toe in red with very impractical shoes.

Charles Adrian
Yes. Well, they don't look like shoes so much as...

Vera and Charles Adrian
Stockings...

Charles Adrian
... extended forward from the toe into a spike.

Vera Chok
[interrogative] Hmm. Yes.

Charles Adrian
Fascinating.

Vera Chok
So there you go.

Charles Adrian
I love how calm he looks. He's totally untroubled by this fennel harvesting. Oh wonderful. Thank you so much. I am... I am going to like this.

Vera Chok
[speaking over] It's one of my favourite books ever.

Charles Adrian
Oh! That feels so special. Thank you so much for giving me that.

Vera Chok
It's my pleasure. I'm going to look at it when I come round and visit some time.

Charles Adrian
Yes. Yeah,. It will be available for you on the coffee table. Thank you so much for doing this once again, Vera. For possibly the last time.

Vera Chok
[speaking over] Mmm. I always hate the endings.

Charles Adrian
Yeah.

Jingle
Thank you for listening to Page One. For more information about the podcast please go to pageonepodcast.com

[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]